In Hand #1, I was just trying to make it look bluffy. I would cbet the flop a lot, and I expected him to float me often, certainly with any pair. But if I bet again on the turn, it would be tough for him to continue without an Ace. If he has an Ace, the money's going in anyway, so I'm targeting the rest of his range. I thought if I checked the turn, he would likely bet either to protect a pair or as a bluff. If he did bet, I was planning to check-jam, again to make it look like a bluff and hopefully get called if he has a decent pair. When he checked back, I figured I'd just go for broke and overbet jam the river. He thought about it for awhile, but made the right fold. The river J didn't help my cause.
Hand #1 was early in the match and it may have been a bit of a loose call to get me in more trouble than make me money facing a 3bet but as for the rhythm of the match I was kind of expecting him to 3bet at some random points with a wide range. Still, before seeing the flop I had to consider most aces, decent kings and pocket pairs and since we had full stacks I decided to see the flop. Even though I wasn't thrilled about the aces on the flop, it’s hard in a HU match to give someone the immediate credit for the trips, he only made it half-pot to move on so I floated to re-assess the turn. To me the 8 on the turn was a blank and if he had fired a second barrel depending on the sizing I may have made a move but the check seemed “trappy” and I didn’t mind getting a showdown at this point. The J rivers and he shoves. Although I wasn’t necessarily giving him credit for the monster he had, there were still many hands he would be doing that with that had me crushed, so his range [I felt] wasn’t too polarized and the fold not THAT hard to make.
Calling the 3bet with 77 is trivial. You can either call or 4bet. Folding is not an option. Nothing loose about the call.
When the turn came, I considered either betting half pot or checking. After the hand, it occurred to me that betting small on the turn might have been a viable alternative. The idea would be to make it look like a blocker bet with a hand that wants to get to showdown but doesn't want to check and face a bet. That line could have netted me some more value - maybe even a lot more value.
On hand #1....I love the C bet on the flop for the reasons Ian listed. Edgar is practically forced to call and given his line pre-flop, a small pair is likely and exactly the type of hand you want to be against. Edgar has to at least call but a raise to "see where he's at" would have sent alarms off with a call or raise from Ian.
Hand #2 was a tough fold for Ian after the raise and texture of the board. Edgar could have easily bet a busted draw given the checks on the turn. I might have just called Edgar's river bet(and still lost) but a raise on the river seems funky since Ian's probably either chopping or crushed if called.
I thought hands 3 and 4 were fairly standard with it being difficult for either to proceed with the betting. Ian's shove on the turn in hand 4 was a tough fold for Edgar but he could have easily been drawing dead. Nice semi-bluff Ian.
My decision to fold in Hand #2 had a lot do with recent history with Edgar. My chip lead up to that point was due mostly to two pots in which he bet-called the river with one or two pair. In both, I had a strong hand, and he didn't give me credit and paid me off. So, when I river a straight with 87, I have to put in a value raise. But when he 3bet-jams, I think he has a better straight almost always. I had shown him the goods in previous pots with my river raises, and there was no reason that I couldn't have backed into a straight in this hand. So, I figure to be raising for value, and therefore he figures to be reraising for value. In that case, I'm beat. In retrospect, I think I should have raised a little smaller. I actually considered making it just 60, but I got greedy and went all the way up to 90.
In terms of whether Edgar can have a better straight, he definitely can. A lot of guys would auto-3bet with KQ. Not Edgar. He could definitely just flat with it. Similarly, a lot of guys would check-raise with either KQ or Q8 on that flop. Not Edgar. He could check-raise, but he's also very capable of flatting. So, there was no reason for me to rule better straights out of this range.
Hand #3 was interesting for me since I was very close to jamming the turn. I thought Edgar could have just one big heart card a lot, no pair, in which case I'm ahead. The problem is, he's sometimes ahead, and when he bets as large as he did on the turn, I don't think I have much fold equity. He wouldn't have like to see me shove that turn, but I think he priced himself in. Anyway, it was close from my perspective. If he had bet smaller, I probably would have jammed, thinking he just had the naked Ace of hearts, and he probably would have called with his two pair, and I probably would have missed my flush and gotten stacked.
In Hand #4, when Edgar just called my cbet on the flop, I didn't think he was very strong. I think he has very few hands he can slowplay there, so he probably isn't in love with his hand. Then the turn makes the board even scarier, so I decided to go ahead and make the big bluff. I certainly wouldn't have done it without the King of spades to potentially bail me out. Honestly, I didn't expect Edgar to fold if he had an overpair with a spade. But I figured with just an overpair or a naked spade, he'd be likely to lay down when I gave him such a bad price. I felt like overbet shoving the turn was the safer play than making a reasonable-sized bet. If he calls the turn, how likely is he to fold on the river? Of course, if the river ends up being a spade, then it's good for me if we see it, but I didn't know that, and it's unlikely to turn out that way in any event.
Against some guys, overbetting the turn would look super bluffy. But I knew that Edgar knew that I could overbet shove the turn with a strong hand, so that helped me pull the trigger.
I am still a bit shocked about Ians fold in Hand #2.
I decided to flat KQ oop as I figured a 3bet would end the hand there and I was looking for a chance to play a flop with the potential for a larger pot. I flopped an open ended straight draw with tons of outs moving into the turn and river as I am including K’s and Q’s as potential outs to any under pair, pocket pair or worse Kings or Queens Ian may have. I didn’t check-raise the flop because I was not ready to turn my hand into a bluff at this point and the $10 extra he bets doesn’t make the pot THAT much attractive yet, I was however considering check-raising the turn as there were many made hands I could credibly represent but he checked behind.
When I make my straight on the river after he checks the turn I’m thinking that I am not making anything more on this hand as I didn’t think there was much he could have that he would’ve check the turn with, so I go for an almost pot-sized bet to make it look like I’m stealing rather than getting thin value with a smaller amount. To my [pleasant] surprise he raises big and I’m thinking that he can only be doing that with a naked 8 or possibly Q8 and he is NOT folding so it’s an easy shove as there is pretty much only ONE hand (KQ) that could beat him. He folds. :( Soul read imo.
Hand #3 it’s one of those hands when it seems timely to make a random 3bet knowing that the button will be opening with a very wide range but unlikely to call many raises. As it turns out he called so I immediately put him on a medium pocket pair or two overs. The flop comes 10-high with two hearts and I decide to cbet to protect my hand as I felt to be likely ahead as over-pairs most probably would’ve 4bet pre, and there were many turns I wouldn’t like to see. When he just called the bet flop I figured he didn’t have a flush draw as Ian is the kind of player that is happy to re-raise with flush draws most times and with the 4 of hearts in the turn I had to go for another pot-sized bet to either get max value with my hand or to price him high on a stubborn heart.
I am not happy at all with how I played hand #4. To begin with, I think it was a standard 4bet with continued aggression on the flop or after the flat pre a raise on the flop. He had not been 3betting much and I had position so I opted for the flat. The flop came 9-high all spades, but this didn’t affect me as much as I was mostly concerned with premium pairs and not necessarily suited cards. When the seven comes and there is 4 to a straight I am just a bit concerned about it, but I’m still thinking over-pairs with a possibility of overcards with a single spade. It is noteworthy to mention I exhausted my time bank in the turn as the shove seemed too polarized, and I felt I may have had the best hand. As it turned out, I did. nh Ian.
In hand #1,the action went as expected. Ian did you a big favor by pushing on the river after checking the turn. A value size bet may have looked more like a bluff there and may have been paid off since 77 did have some showdown value. Not quite sure what he gets away with there? 36 bucks? lol Nice work on this site Edgar! Joe
I agree with Joe that a reasonable-sized river vbet would have been higher EV than a shove in Hand #1. It gets called WAY more often, so even though the bet is much smaller, I figure to make more money in that spot in the long run. However, there are other factors to consider, and I prefer the shove there, on balance. Here's why:
This was early on in our match, and I knew that Edgar expected me to come out playing aggressively and making some crazy bluffs. Well, he's right. I will be making some overbet shoves as a bluff. Because of that, I also need to shove for value when I crush the board like I did with the A5. If I bet like half pot on that river and get looked up, how does he ever give me credit for the shove in Hand #4? It's not often that I'll have a hand strong enough to jam for value. I want to include those monsters in my shoving range. Early in a HU match, I want establish that we're going to be playing for stacks, and that my opponent is going to be in spots where he has to guess whether I'm shoving for value or as a bluff. He has to consider calling with 77 there because I can be bluffing. If I am, he can stack me just by clicking the call button.
This was a spot where I didn't expect to get a lot of value because the board was so scary. So, what the hell. I'll swing for the fences. If he calls, I stack him, and I pick up momentum in the match. If he folds, he has to wonder whether he got blown off the pot with the best hand.
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In Hand #1, I was just trying to make it look bluffy. I would cbet the flop a lot, and I expected him to float me often, certainly with any pair. But if I bet again on the turn, it would be tough for him to continue without an Ace. If he has an Ace, the money's going in anyway, so I'm targeting the rest of his range. I thought if I checked the turn, he would likely bet either to protect a pair or as a bluff. If he did bet, I was planning to check-jam, again to make it look like a bluff and hopefully get called if he has a decent pair. When he checked back, I figured I'd just go for broke and overbet jam the river. He thought about it for awhile, but made the right fold. The river J didn't help my cause.
ReplyDeleteHand #1 was early in the match and it may have been a bit of a loose call to get me in more trouble than make me money facing a 3bet but as for the rhythm of the match I was kind of expecting him to 3bet at some random points with a wide range. Still, before seeing the flop I had to consider most aces, decent kings and pocket pairs and since we had full stacks I decided to see the flop.
ReplyDeleteEven though I wasn't thrilled about the aces on the flop, it’s hard in a HU match to give someone the immediate credit for the trips, he only made it half-pot to move on so I floated to re-assess the turn. To me the 8 on the turn was a blank and if he had fired a second barrel depending on the sizing I may have made a move but the check seemed “trappy” and I didn’t mind getting a showdown at this point.
The J rivers and he shoves. Although I wasn’t necessarily giving him credit for the monster he had, there were still many hands he would be doing that with that had me crushed, so his range [I felt] wasn’t too polarized and the fold not THAT hard to make.
Calling the 3bet with 77 is trivial. You can either call or 4bet. Folding is not an option. Nothing loose about the call.
ReplyDeleteWhen the turn came, I considered either betting half pot or checking. After the hand, it occurred to me that betting small on the turn might have been a viable alternative. The idea would be to make it look like a blocker bet with a hand that wants to get to showdown but doesn't want to check and face a bet. That line could have netted me some more value - maybe even a lot more value.
On hand #1....I love the C bet on the flop for the reasons Ian listed. Edgar is practically forced to call and given his line pre-flop, a small pair is likely and exactly the type of hand you want to be against. Edgar has to at least call but a raise to "see where he's at" would have sent alarms off with a call or raise from Ian.
ReplyDeleteHand #2 was a tough fold for Ian after the raise and texture of the board. Edgar could have easily bet a busted draw given the checks on the turn. I might have just called Edgar's river bet(and still lost) but a raise on the river seems funky since Ian's probably either chopping or crushed if called.
ReplyDeleteI thought hands 3 and 4 were fairly standard with it being difficult for either to proceed with the betting. Ian's shove on the turn in hand 4 was a tough fold for Edgar but he could have easily been drawing dead. Nice semi-bluff Ian.
ReplyDeleteMy decision to fold in Hand #2 had a lot do with recent history with Edgar. My chip lead up to that point was due mostly to two pots in which he bet-called the river with one or two pair. In both, I had a strong hand, and he didn't give me credit and paid me off. So, when I river a straight with 87, I have to put in a value raise. But when he 3bet-jams, I think he has a better straight almost always. I had shown him the goods in previous pots with my river raises, and there was no reason that I couldn't have backed into a straight in this hand. So, I figure to be raising for value, and therefore he figures to be reraising for value. In that case, I'm beat. In retrospect, I think I should have raised a little smaller. I actually considered making it just 60, but I got greedy and went all the way up to 90.
ReplyDeleteIn terms of whether Edgar can have a better straight, he definitely can. A lot of guys would auto-3bet with KQ. Not Edgar. He could definitely just flat with it. Similarly, a lot of guys would check-raise with either KQ or Q8 on that flop. Not Edgar. He could check-raise, but he's also very capable of flatting. So, there was no reason for me to rule better straights out of this range.
Hand #3 was interesting for me since I was very close to jamming the turn. I thought Edgar could have just one big heart card a lot, no pair, in which case I'm ahead. The problem is, he's sometimes ahead, and when he bets as large as he did on the turn, I don't think I have much fold equity. He wouldn't have like to see me shove that turn, but I think he priced himself in. Anyway, it was close from my perspective. If he had bet smaller, I probably would have jammed, thinking he just had the naked Ace of hearts, and he probably would have called with his two pair, and I probably would have missed my flush and gotten stacked.
ReplyDeleteIn Hand #4, when Edgar just called my cbet on the flop, I didn't think he was very strong. I think he has very few hands he can slowplay there, so he probably isn't in love with his hand. Then the turn makes the board even scarier, so I decided to go ahead and make the big bluff. I certainly wouldn't have done it without the King of spades to potentially bail me out. Honestly, I didn't expect Edgar to fold if he had an overpair with a spade. But I figured with just an overpair or a naked spade, he'd be likely to lay down when I gave him such a bad price. I felt like overbet shoving the turn was the safer play than making a reasonable-sized bet. If he calls the turn, how likely is he to fold on the river? Of course, if the river ends up being a spade, then it's good for me if we see it, but I didn't know that, and it's unlikely to turn out that way in any event.
ReplyDeleteAgainst some guys, overbetting the turn would look super bluffy. But I knew that Edgar knew that I could overbet shove the turn with a strong hand, so that helped me pull the trigger.
I am still a bit shocked about Ians fold in Hand #2.
ReplyDeleteI decided to flat KQ oop as I figured a 3bet would end the hand there and I was looking for a chance to play a flop with the potential for a larger pot. I flopped an open ended straight draw with tons of outs moving into the turn and river as I am including K’s and Q’s as potential outs to any under pair, pocket pair or worse Kings or Queens Ian may have. I didn’t check-raise the flop because I was not ready to turn my hand into a bluff at this point and the $10 extra he bets doesn’t make the pot THAT much attractive yet, I was however considering check-raising the turn as there were many made hands I could credibly represent but he checked behind.
When I make my straight on the river after he checks the turn I’m thinking that I am not making anything more on this hand as I didn’t think there was much he could have that he would’ve check the turn with, so I go for an almost pot-sized bet to make it look like I’m stealing rather than getting thin value with a smaller amount. To my [pleasant] surprise he raises big and I’m thinking that he can only be doing that with a naked 8 or possibly Q8 and he is NOT folding so it’s an easy shove as there is pretty much only ONE hand (KQ) that could beat him. He folds. :( Soul read imo.
Hand #3 it’s one of those hands when it seems timely to make a random 3bet knowing that the button will be opening with a very wide range but unlikely to call many raises. As it turns out he called so I immediately put him on a medium pocket pair or two overs. The flop comes 10-high with two hearts and I decide to cbet to protect my hand as I felt to be likely ahead as over-pairs most probably would’ve 4bet pre, and there were many turns I wouldn’t like to see. When he just called the bet flop I figured he didn’t have a flush draw as Ian is the kind of player that is happy to re-raise with flush draws most times and with the 4 of hearts in the turn I had to go for another pot-sized bet to either get max value with my hand or to price him high on a stubborn heart.
ReplyDeleteI am not happy at all with how I played hand #4. To begin with, I think it was a standard 4bet with continued aggression on the flop or after the flat pre a raise on the flop. He had not been 3betting much and I had position so I opted for the flat. The flop came 9-high all spades, but this didn’t affect me as much as I was mostly concerned with premium pairs and not necessarily suited cards. When the seven comes and there is 4 to a straight I am just a bit concerned about it, but I’m still thinking over-pairs with a possibility of overcards with a single spade. It is noteworthy to mention I exhausted my time bank in the turn as the shove seemed too polarized, and I felt I may have had the best hand. As it turned out, I did. nh Ian.
ReplyDeleteIn hand #1,the action went as expected. Ian did you a big favor by pushing on the river after checking the turn. A value size bet may have looked more like a bluff there and may have been paid off since 77 did have some showdown value. Not quite sure what he gets away with there? 36 bucks? lol
ReplyDeleteNice work on this site Edgar!
Joe
I agree with Joe that a reasonable-sized river vbet would have been higher EV than a shove in Hand #1. It gets called WAY more often, so even though the bet is much smaller, I figure to make more money in that spot in the long run. However, there are other factors to consider, and I prefer the shove there, on balance. Here's why:
ReplyDeleteThis was early on in our match, and I knew that Edgar expected me to come out playing aggressively and making some crazy bluffs. Well, he's right. I will be making some overbet shoves as a bluff. Because of that, I also need to shove for value when I crush the board like I did with the A5. If I bet like half pot on that river and get looked up, how does he ever give me credit for the shove in Hand #4? It's not often that I'll have a hand strong enough to jam for value. I want to include those monsters in my shoving range. Early in a HU match, I want establish that we're going to be playing for stacks, and that my opponent is going to be in spots where he has to guess whether I'm shoving for value or as a bluff. He has to consider calling with 77 there because I can be bluffing. If I am, he can stack me just by clicking the call button.
This was a spot where I didn't expect to get a lot of value because the board was so scary. So, what the hell. I'll swing for the fences. If he calls, I stack him, and I pick up momentum in the match. If he folds, he has to wonder whether he got blown off the pot with the best hand.
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ReplyDelete